tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post4144507608978183409..comments2023-10-10T05:17:55.737-07:00Comments on Crushed By Ingsoc: Prohibition, Censorships, Forbidden KnowledgeCrushedhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02479751225625007588noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-83642367052136420102008-04-20T12:13:00.000-07:002008-04-20T12:13:00.000-07:00What I think is that you persist in trying to find...What I think is that you persist in trying to find a justification for shouting "fire!" in a crowded theatre.<br><br>Posture all you like but somethings shouldn't be said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-27260936924712906972008-04-20T12:43:00.000-07:002008-04-20T12:43:00.000-07:00There is only one reason why shouting 'Fire' in a ...There is only one reason why shouting 'Fire' in a crowded theatre is wrong, that there is no fire. If of course, there IS a fire, then shouting fire is the thing to do.<br><br>I'm sorry, but human progress is dependant on allowing as much freedom of maneouvure for rational conceptualisation and communication, as is compatible with maintaining public safety and the personal security of the individul.<br><br>I will not support or condone censorship on grounds of taste and decency. We don't live in pre-1994 South Africa, or 50's Ireland, Thank God.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-10207222051135748132008-04-20T16:34:00.000-07:002008-04-20T16:34:00.000-07:00Where do you draw lines? I guess the oldest answer...Where do you draw lines? I guess the oldest answer is the best one - where you impinge on the freedom of others. I'm uneasy with the idea that you can legalise something just because people do it - we could end up legalising everything that way. And I do think there should be "holocaust denial" laws - otherwise it could happen all over again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-69276905730817271372008-04-20T22:19:00.000-07:002008-04-20T22:19:00.000-07:00Hmmmm...You started with 'no' to censorship, and i...Hmmmm...<br>You started with 'no' to censorship, and it was convincing... and then at the end, yes, as you say; not everyone is suitable for every book.... <br><br>I'd say, let everyone choose what they want to read, but the one who decides to write, and the other to publish, carry a heavy responsibility. I would like to read the books you mention, but I refrain. As you say; dark knowledge, and innocence IS bliss, in matter of evil. Even with writing; there are things I don't write, and places I don't explore, for fear of unlocking the darkness, either in myself or a potential reader. Nowadays, knowledge is given to all; but not all can be entrusted with it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-70532699240465026382008-04-21T04:18:00.000-07:002008-04-21T04:18:00.000-07:00What is truth ?Are each of us as individuals able ...What is truth ?<br><br>Are each of us as individuals able to discern ? <br><br> I think that even in the freest of states censorship exists. Concensus is reached as to where we would like society to go and we appoint people who we trust to select what we can and can't see.<br><br>That sounds so restrictive doesn't it ? <br><br>I don't mean to be so. I just feel that if people wish to seek those things out then they can - in private. But that society should voice its disapproval and draw lines and boundaries to prevent the routine coarsening and debauching of the masses (me included).<br><br>Media DOES influence behaviour - if this isn't true then why is the advertising industry worth billions ? So I'm pro banning on a wide range of corrosive and unedifying activities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-72394082692403596192008-04-21T10:24:00.000-07:002008-04-21T10:24:00.000-07:00I think Welshcakes sums this up very nicely!I think Welshcakes sums this up very nicely!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-2613963591389400362008-04-21T11:03:00.000-07:002008-04-21T11:03:00.000-07:00Welshcakes- It depends on how many, and in what wa...Welshcakes- It depends on how many, and in what way. As a general rule, laws are there to protect. No victim, no crime, in my opinion.<br>The thing is, it's not illegal to say a numner of downright stupid things. It isn't illegal to say Apollo 11 never landed on the Moon, though that is pretty offensive to all those who went there. Admittedly, not on the same scale.<br><br>I don't really see how anything the holocaust deniers say can ever make anti-semitism right. Fact is, in an open debate, they'll b proved wrong, and the subject dies for good. I think the German law as it stands, fuels the neo-nazis, in the same way as internment in the '70s simply drove people to the IRA.<br><br>Eve- This is where I'm at, yes. I don't think there should be forbidden thoughts, just maybe control of who has access to them. The books I mentioned, I do think, are pretty shocking at a certain level, they haunt, and I dread to think of the effect they would have on someone who had entertained thoughts of that nature. It's a delicate balance, and the thing is, it would be great to be able to prserve the art/knowledge, yet keep it safe from those who wouls misuse it.<br><br>E-K- And where would you stand on Nine Songs and such films? Personally, I have no objection to such films becoming mainstream, but certain religious groups would. Whereas, I do object to some of the medical programmes broadcast on terrestial TV. Sorry, I don't want to see people's insides. But I have a choice. I don't have to look.<br><br>I think we still have some strange cultural ideas regarding what we censor. We'd rather young people saw people being slashed to pieces than making love. Bizarre, if you ask me.<br><br>CherryPie- I think most would see that as a good framework. However, then we have people trying to sneak in concepts such as the 'moral majority', a lovely myth of the right.<br>I think the thing is, we all need to stop being so offended so easy.<br>Let me put it this way- click the blog link below mine in the BP blogroll. The most recent post there CERTAINLY offends me, in fact most posts on that blog do. But I reserve the right NOT to click the link. Simple.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-33875733312317565632008-04-21T11:36:00.000-07:002008-04-21T11:36:00.000-07:00That is what I was meaning. We do need a framewor...That is what I was meaning. We do need a framework, but I do very much believe in freedom of speech. So where do you draw the line between the two?<br><br>Yes I agree I have seen blogs which I find offensive but people do have the right to say what they think. I just choose not to visit them. It usually not so much what they are saying on their blogs, it is how they express themselves that puts me off!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-34720083541800675322008-04-21T12:28:00.000-07:002008-04-21T12:28:00.000-07:00I'm very opposed to censorship of itself but I do ...I'm very opposed to censorship of itself but I do think we need to keep certain things away from children.<br><br>How we do that is often a minefield as many parents have stricter guidelines than others consequently want books banned from school libraries for example which others see as harmless. <br><br>I won't comment on legalisation of drugs. I'm just not convinced for what I think are very good scientific reasons, but of course others do not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-21210883250574332542008-04-21T15:28:00.000-07:002008-04-21T15:28:00.000-07:00Cherry Pie- I guess so, some people seem to just p...Cherry Pie- I guess so, some people seem to just put your back up, don't they? Expressed with niggling stridency.<br>There is an art to it, I guess. Being able to railroad through taboos without anyone taking offence.<br><br>Some of the works of Sade raise interesting moral questions. Not in terms of, we should copy what is depicted, but in terms of pushing the boundaries of socio-political radicalism.<br><br>jmb- I think you need to remember that parental decisions are only part of it. If the parents are too strict, and kids se they CAN'T do what all their classmates do, they'll rebel to the other extreme. Like it or not, parents need to be awatre of where the cultural centre of gravity is. My parents tried the strict approach, and it had completely the opposite result to that desired.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-64286117257008871272008-04-21T22:05:00.000-07:002008-04-21T22:05:00.000-07:00"If of course, there IS a fire, then shouting fire..."If of course, there IS a fire, then shouting fire is the thing to do."<br><br>and there we have proof you don't understand anything whatsoever about human nature.<br><br>Even if there is a fire you don't shout "fire" because in a crowd that will induce panic, what you do is calmly move people away from the fire and out of the building.<br><br>Could I suggest more thought and less incontinent spraying of bullshit?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-66655951966812927282008-04-22T01:38:00.000-07:002008-04-22T01:38:00.000-07:00I have never heard of the film Nine Songs.I feel t...I have never heard of the film Nine Songs.<br><br>I feel that broadcasters, writers and film makers have the power to set agendas - this needs to be tempered or we end up with individuals of immense undemocratic influence who are, incidentally, wealthy enough to live far from the consequences of their work.<br><br>I don't think that the mainstreaming of either graphic violence or graphic sex is good. Leave those things in an inconvenient place where people can find them if they must. The State's position should always be one of disapproval and boundary setting. <br><br>Why ?<br><br>Because boundaries will always be pushed. You are partly right that banning doesn't work - the authorities know this. But by setting the boundary at a given distance (usually farther from the danger zone than the transgressor realises) the authorities maintain control whilst enabling a certain amount of healthy rebelliousness without too much damage.<br><br>The alternative is ever increasing degeneracy and degredation as we are witnessing now. <br><br>Some people, for example, think that we live in more liberated times now that we can say the words 'fuck' or 'cunt' without too much censure. I doubt that older people would agree though - and it certainly doesn't appear to be older people kicking people's heads like footballs or breeding like feral animals. I bet the head-kickers and feral-breeders use the words 'fuck' and 'cunt' quite liberally though, possibly while they're kicking heads, 'making love' or probably both - coincidence do you think ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-17085137122107513872008-04-22T10:58:00.000-07:002008-04-22T10:58:00.000-07:00Baht At- I'm willing to lay good money on the poss...Baht At- I'm willing to lay good money on the possibility that I know a hell of a lot more about human nature than yourself...<br>The whole life experience thing, you know. But that isn't really the subject being debated here. Further, it is a descent into ad hominem argument.<br><br>Now to be frank, I'm having difficulty trying to work out what point you are trying to make.<br><br>I don't see the connection, to be honest, between shouting 'fire' in a theatre and the general principle of free speech. The question is, does someone (or their reputation) get hurt.<br><br>If you are still stuck in the question of the blog you objected to, then that is completely irrelevant to the point of this post, which actually dealt more with the issue of censorship in art and literature, something which is anathema to me, on the whole.<br><br>I am going to return the suggestion to yourself. How about revelling in the wonderful panaromaic view of opinion available to us and voice diagreement in a polite and courteous way?<br><br>E-K- The first film on mainstream release with actual sex scenes in it. Something of a milestone. As you can probably imagine, I don't really have a problem with it.<br><br>Violence is something we want to get rid of. Sex, hardly. It's a bodily function and a pretty necessary one. And in fact. most of us enjoy it and funnily enough, enjoy watching it. I think keeping sex under the carpet, allows it to get attached to fairly nefarious things.<br>Take the word porn. It includes depictions of something we all do, with the vilest acts known to the species. That can't be right. I'd like to see NORMAL sex rescued from that gradation scale.<br><br>As a species, we are passing through adolescence. Up till now, we've preety much been children, told what to do by KIngs, Nobles, Religions. We're only just shaking thst off. It's going to be hard.<br><br>But in the long run, better. I believe we CAN and WILL govern ourselves RESONSIBLY. We're learning, as a species, how to do it. This is part of the journey, the destruction of taboo, and the creation of codes of behaviour based on pure reason.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-23085230875273211602008-04-22T15:21:00.000-07:002008-04-22T15:21:00.000-07:00Having a poo is a natural function too.I don't wan...Having a poo is a natural function too.<br><br>I don't want to see it happen though.<br><br>Some things need only be suggested in films - Psycho, for example, had no gore in it at all but was far more effective than most modern horror films. But that's beside the point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-66223579479237588072008-04-24T01:43:00.000-07:002008-04-24T01:43:00.000-07:00ah crushed dear boy you are so up your own arse yo...ah crushed dear boy you are so up your own arse you can't see anything but tonsils.<br><br>The point is that your blog appears to be generated by your body without any input from your brain and you regularly return to the same old topic that you should be allowed to be as stupid as you like and people shouldn't point out the flaws in your argument.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-883919453210698752008-04-24T03:15:00.000-07:002008-04-24T03:15:00.000-07:00E-K- No,I have no interest in seeing that either. ...E-K- No,I have no interest in seeing that either. :)<br><br>Omen II, best horror film of all time.<br><br>Baht at- Dear, dear. No, I don't recommend stupidity, any more than I recommend your debating style.<br><br>I do however, fully endorse freedom of speech.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com