tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post278593046859892051..comments2023-10-10T05:17:55.737-07:00Comments on Crushed By Ingsoc: Why do We Forget Byzantium?Crushedhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02479751225625007588noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-38690653376934806642008-12-16T14:56:00.000-08:002008-12-16T14:56:00.000-08:00You mean the world isn't flat? Are you sure? Wh...You mean the world isn't flat? Are you sure? What happened after the Goblins invaded Middle Earth and King Ceaserium stole the sceptre of the Merpeople?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-19246111125141483922008-12-17T00:58:00.000-08:002008-12-17T00:58:00.000-08:00Thanks for that. If you haven't seen it before, yo...Thanks for that. If you haven't seen it before, you might find my post <a href="http://methodius.blogspot.com/2007/01/st-constantine-scapegoat-of-west.html#links" rel="nofollow">Notes from underground: St Constantine, Scapegoat of the West</a> interesting as well.<br><br>Another thing I noticed -- in the prelude to the break-up of Yugoslavia there were numerous op-ed propaganda articles, syndicated in the Western press, stressing that the Croats were Western, Latin and <i>civilized</i>, while the Serbs were Oriental, Byzantine/Ottoman and <i>barbarian</i>. And a few months later Yugoslavia fell apart into quarrelling factions -- but the Western propaganda that preceded the break-up was part of the softening up process, aimed at preparing people in the West for what would happen, and to enlist their support for the side billed as "Western".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-64228393592663756502008-12-17T02:40:00.000-08:002008-12-17T02:40:00.000-08:00I do enjoy these history posts crushed. cheers!I do enjoy these history posts crushed. cheers!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-79880924603118652472008-12-17T10:10:00.000-08:002008-12-17T10:10:00.000-08:00Crushed are you a history buff then? I do like the...Crushed are you a history buff then? I do like the refresher as well!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-10530745512720429792008-12-18T00:48:00.000-08:002008-12-18T00:48:00.000-08:00Generally an interesting post about Constantinople...Generally an interesting post about Constantinople and the Eastern Empire. Spoiled for me by just a hint of unjustified cultural self hate. You were praising the virtues of Moslem Spain, I figure to make the point. <br><br>Yes there were positive things under more enlightened rulers, there and elsewhere. But it depends on having enlightened rulers. Also don’t forget (from memory)…<br><br>Conquest by force. Extra taxes for non Moslems. Laws preventing Christian owned building over a certain height. Laws preventing Christians physically defending themselves if attacked by Moslems, etc.<br><br>Also, sack of Constantinople not withstanding, in the end, what finally put paid to Constantinople was conquest. It was over run by the Ottoman Empire, the Hagia Sophia, the eastern equivalent of St Peters, was desecrated and turned into a mosque and those laws that made conversion to Islam almost inevitable were instituted.<br><br>I guess what your post does suggest is to wonder… without all that conquest and re conquest, mostly in the name of religion of one flavour or another. Without all that where would we all be now?<br><br>Would you, or someone like you, (taking one of your thoughts) have written your post in a city on Mars? Maybe Novo Constantinople? Or would someone still be trying to figure out how to build a brass difference engine for a powerful noble in Constantinople?<br><br>I wonder if Steve does not put too much faith in the sinister western free press. Does he really figure the Yugoslavians read it and decided to shatter into factions, etc. as a result? Talk about the pen being mightier than the sword.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-38531326153008252242008-12-18T03:19:00.000-08:002008-12-18T03:19:00.000-08:00Crushed I agree Byzantium needs more attention pai...Crushed I agree Byzantium needs more attention paid to it. On one point Bryan Ward Perkins's work definitely suggests that there was an economic collapse in the West after 400. Peter Heather suggests the same thing in his recent history of the empire. Its worth noting that Justinian's invasions of Italy had a disastrous economic effect there too. Another key point that I think you don't mention is the way that Byzantium's structure changed after the Persian war of the early seventh century and the Muslim invasions- there are good reasons to say that it was no longer a classical state after that in the form it had been before.<br><br>For those interested- more up to date that Ostrogovsky, Judith Herrin has just published a volume on the empire which is well worth a read.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-48615953282471706472008-12-18T15:05:00.000-08:002008-12-18T15:05:00.000-08:00Mutley- I'm reasonably sure, yes.Though I think on...Mutley- I'm reasonably sure, yes.<br><br>Though I think one of the models Tolkien used for Gondor was Byzantium. Though there are others. But Minas Tirith clearly holds the position in Middle earth of the late Third age that Byzantium did to early medieval Europe.<br><br>Steve- One thing I reflected on as I read your post there was how much the earlier history of schism and religious controversy within the Christian faiths is neglected in favour of focussing on the later controversies.<br><br>I remember once trying to explain to someone the complex history of the dysophysite position and how it really was a tightrope position between arianism and Nestorianism, so much so that Monophysitism fell foul, and even Monotheletism didn't cut it.<br>And of course the whole Iconoclast- Iconodule controversy really had ramifications way beyond. I think, if I remember right, Charlemagne used it as an excuse for taking the Imperium, that Irene was not only a woman, but a heretic.<br><br>I think the Serbs have had a hard deal, yes. I remember as a tenn my history teacher said 'I used to think that the Serbs were innocent in 1914. But looking at the news now...'<br><br>And I was shocked. Here was a supposedly liberal man stating in front of teenagers he judging historical events by racial stereotyping!<br><br>Interesting Romania has been able to become a unity though. After all, Moldavia and Wallachia belong to the Eastern sphere. Transylvania, in spite of what is thought, belongs to the history of the West.<br><br>Kate- I enjoy writing them too, actually :)<br><br>It's the story of how we got where we are. The most interesting story of all.<br><br>Cat- I guess I always have been, in a way. I don't see history as a dead subject, not at all. History is a process. If you choose to treat it properly, it's understanding the foundations of how we set systems of living up, it's understanding how we came to conclusions in the first place, it's the experiments we tried in what works and what doesn't.<br><br>History is our collective memory. It's the story of the life experience of every human life that went before, in some way.<br><br>How can you have faith in the future unless you listen to the past?<br>And I don't mean as so many do, that we should OBEY the past. they wouldn't have wanted that. Christ, they had to live through it. I think they'd hope- if anything- we'll LEARN from them.<br><br>Moggs- I think Muslim Spain is one of the key pointers against the idea that Islam is an inherantly intolerant faith.<br>You point to legislation passed by these states making non-muslims second class citizens.<br><br>Edward I give all Jews and Gypsies three months to pack their bags and go.<br>And we NEVER allowed the gypsies back. It's why the UK doesn't havereal Romanys.<br><br>And please compare the expulsion and enforced conversion ofr the Marranos and Moriscos to how Christians were treated under Muslim rule.<br><br>No, the Caliphs of Cordoba didn't treat Christians as equals. But they were prepared to live with them, even learn from them.<br><br>The UK couldn't even allow FELLOW Christians to vote until 1829!<br><br>I guess i feel that the Byzantine empire is forgotten, because it lost, and lost to the Turks, themselves excluded from being the ultimate winners of history. Not because they lost, but were sidelined. So this is a history of a legacy that got passed on, then when we all felt clevere and smarter, we forgot the debt we owed.<br><br>We forgot that for Western Europe to have flourished, Charlemagne needed to repel the Islamic invaders.<br>And a Westetn christendom develop protected by the Dardanelles and able to learn to stand on its own feet again.<br><br>Byzantium was there to protect the Barbarian inheritors whilst they grew up.<br><br>Gracchi- Well, the empire changes radically during the reign of Heraclius.<br><br>I think it might have been when Maurice was overthrown that the crowds yelled 'Give the Empire a Roman Emperor, give the empire a Christian empire'.<br><br>anyway, heraclius reign changed everything. Not only did Greek replace Latin, but Islam triumphed in what had till then, been important provinces.<br><br>In my view, his reign marks a dramatic shift from being the Eastern Roman Empire, to being a Greek Imperial state, actually highly centralised- I'm not sure but I think the demes were founded soon after- a state essentially which saw itself not only as being the guardian of civilisation, but also the protector of Christendom against the infidel.<br><br>I think that's when it became the Byzanhtium that lives on in Russian culture- the archetypal Eastern Orthodox culture.<br><br>I generally incline to the view- ref my series on human systematic development- that for Western wurop, the classical period lasts up until the eight century, and then the medieval period starts. There are no dark ages.<br>The eighth century marks a profound geopolitical cultural shift in so many, many way.<br><br>Because it is when the Europe of the Middle Ages is formed. Up until then, it is still the culture of the Roman empire.<br><br>Even in Byzantium, the year 800 is a good cut off point. The height of the Iconoclast controversy, the end of an old dynasty, the start of a new era in which the Byzantines actually do noticably deal differently with neighbouring peoples. We see the start of the Balkan states, for example.<br><br>Ostrogorsky is a little dated, I realise. And the theories then current regarding the circus factions is now disputed. I'll have to check out Ms Herrin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3334391160365031546.post-23035296647739612622008-12-18T23:12:00.000-08:002008-12-18T23:12:00.000-08:00Crushed, I absolutely agree, you wouldn't have wan...Crushed, I absolutely agree, you wouldn't have wanted to be a secret Moslem, or Jew, in Spain under the inquisition. Or be accused of being one, even if you were not.<br><br>My point is still valid. <br><br>And it was not so much tolerant as smart, recognising that passively persecuting, making things uncomfortable and expensive over time is often even more effective than actively persecuting. Also a nice little earner. <br><br>Ask anyone who smokes...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com