Monday, 30 July 2007

Self Delusion or Dark Side?

Well, the result of last week's poll was inconclusive.
Eleven votes for the corporations.
Eleven votes against.
There were no 'don't know's.

The corporations need to do some marketing, methinks.
OK, this week's issue is very different.

In real life, I'm a bit like the last issue.
Ask someone who knew of me, there would be few don't knows.
There would be strong opinions either way.

One of my main faults is that I seem to hurt people without wanting to.
Obviously nobody wants to hurt people.
The problem is when you can't work out how not to.

The only thing I've ever done in my life is sell. I don't do it because it pays huge amounts of money, it doesn't, but because it's a pleasant way to earn enough to live.
Someone is paying you to chat to people.
But there's also that huge adenalin rush of bringing someone in, that sense of hitting the arrow home. That's why you do it.

And you don't trouble yourself about whether the customer ends up satisfied. That's not your job. You aren't responsible for delivery.
As long as you never made any guarantees the company never said it couldn't deliver, you did your job.
It's about representation.

I do it, because I'm not much use at much else.

The problem is, I never quite move outside that mode. For example, I have absolutely no qualms telling someone what I think they want to hear, to get them to sign on the dotted line. I'll flirt with them shamelessly, if need be.
What's worse, I don't even weigh up the decision. I do it without thinking. It's almost an unconscious action.
It becomes a motivator in itself. You enjoy knowing you are making someone feel good.

And I seem to do this instinctively in my personal life.

The problem in my personal life is not so much I can't find love, as just as have no idea what to do with it when I do.
I'm actually quite a prude in some ways. I don't do one night stands as a rule. I do prefer to have some connection to people I am intimate with.
It is what that connection means that can be confusing.

I enjoy the wining and dining aspect, I enjoy the early phase of pillow talk where you offload your fears and fantasies, the look of love in a woman's eye, the period when you have long in depth conversations about the world.
And in a real sense, I mean everything I say at this point. The sweet nothings I whisper are heartfelt nothings.

And yet I say the same sorts of things everytime.

When the initial fire starts to get more 'steady', I find myself lost. The sale bit is over, and I don't know what to do.
The problem is, what I am really in love with is a stage in the process. I love someone who is falling in love, I find it hard to love someone in love.

With a sale, you can comfort yourself you are not responsible for delivering what you represent, yet in real life relationships you are.
I fail badly here.

It is possible that I know that the product I am marketing in this instance is appallingly shoddy and cannot give customer satisfaction.

It is as if, come a certain point, I feel a peak has been reached and it's time to back out.
Even if it does develop further, my feelings fast change to brother-sister feelings, and I am looking elsewhere for that fire again.

And would I even know if I had fallen in love for real?

This is the problem. Sometimes I think I am in love at the time, then it wears off.
But one day I might think it had worn off once that initial stage was over.
And maybe it would be real.

But we also have the moral issue. Knowing this cycle, isn't entering into it at all, morally reprehensible?
I cannot know for sure that I delude myself this time, but looking at past history, it's the most likely interpretation.
Which makes me negligent.

Which I am most guilty of, self delusion or wilful deception, I'll let you decide.

This weeks poll is on Friday night's issue.
Is Monogamy our natural condition?

Have your say.


Anonymous said...

I admire your honesty about yourself and your openess for let other discuss it. I think that love is a tricky thing, and you may not have found it yet. At least not the whole hearted love, because sometimes there are ups and downs, and you ride them through because there is something else that pulls you with that person. I don't think you are evil or reprehensible, in fact you realize your behavior and are aware of what you do. You can only control your feelings, you can't control the feelings of others. I know I have more to say, but I think this is long enough for now! Will come back, when I sort it all out in my head!

Anonymous said...

I think you think too much Mr Ingsoc. Dont think just do.

Anonymous said...

if ever you noticed it: Please try to forget about my smiling irony.
I do appreciate your candidness and - if I do interprete correctly - your self-depreciating.
Friday I said "one CAN love two persons".
Tonight I add: Deep, very deep in one's heart, everybody wishes he/she would be able to live a love like Philemon & Baucis.
Trying to answer your question: Monogamy might not be "OUR NATRURAL CONDITION", but deep, deep in her/his heart everybody is longing for the "ONE AND ONLY".
Could have stopped here. What a lovely end it was.
But ... but ... but ...

Could I explain what was I was trying to tell in a few words? :)

Anonymous said...

If you're honest with yourself you won't go far wrong.
Best wishes

Anonymous said...

Crushed, what you're experiencing is totally normal, everyone has felt that way.

But (since selling is your gig) falling in love with being in love is like spending your entire paycheck on frivolous things instead of investing/saving for a much more harder "thing" to purchase.

I'm not talking about sex, virginity, or conjugal rights, I'm just talking about the emotional investment that requires time, energy, and loving even though flaws and failures will and do occur.

Yes, when you're twenty, thirty, or forty, it's easy and somewhat attractive to maintain that "high" of early love/cathect. Same with spending money frivolously, it's fun for a while, but then you reach a certain age and have nothing to show for the years that have passed, you start to re-think how to go about planning for the future better.

Ultimately people shouldn't be in a relationship because it "feels good" but rather to grow and be a helpmate in someone else's emotional, mental, and spiritual growth. That's love.

Mut's right, though, you think too much. I do, too, apparently. sorry.

Anonymous said...

Physcially no, socially yes.

The worldis full of conlicting messages and the grass is always greener on the other side....

Anonymous said...

Well a cynical psychiatrist would say that you fear connection and commitment... but not me, no, never...

Anonymous said...

Jenny- The awareness adds a problematic dilemma.
Even if you warn someone that you may be bad for them, they take your warning as a sign that they can make headway with you.

Mutley- I don't think very much in this case, Mutley. Unfortunately, acting without thought is something I do a lot of.

Sean- I would agree, in a sense, though I find the idea slightly unnerving. However, many experts say that whether or not you feel that depends on how close you were to your mother. No maternal bond= lack of interest in life partner.
Whilst it's not true that I have no realtionship at all with my mother, it probably wasn't very close.

McEwen- Yes, but the problem is that being honest doesn't change anything sometimes.
I have a policy of being completely straight with women. I tell them that I'm not as nice as I come across, that there a fair few stupid things I have done in my time and that I have a habit of hurting people.
This then convinces them, I can somehow be saved; they are the one to do it.
They subsequently discover, that's a harder prospect than they thought.

Helen- It won't surprise you to know, that money does not stay long in my bank account...
Rent, Bills, Weekend Leisure, HMV, loans to mates, which they write me cheques for and I forget to cash, payday somehow turns up at the right time.
Not much of a plan for the future, I admit.
And if my flatmate didn't give me the money without me reminding her, I often wouldn't remember.

I think maybe, you're right. I just don't have much concept of the future.
Forthcoming social events is really about as far as I think.
I went for an interview the other day and they asked that tired old question 'Where do you see yourself in five years time?'
Same answer as five years ago, Haven't a clue.
But obviously I didn't say that.

You can't think too much :)

CityUn- I used to think that. But now I seem to feel happier being single- as long as I don't have to sleep alone all the time.
That's what I really hate. It's lonely.

David- It's possible. I was engaged several years ago and I think it put me off. Oddly, I think I only settled with her because I'd decided I'd never meet anyone like my first love (I carried her on a pedestal for years after) and that I better settle down with someone reasonably attractive while I still could.
Quite why I thought I was over the hill at 22, I don't know.

Anonymous said...

Ha ha ha! CIB, I was not talking about the consequences of a Ödipus- or Electra-complex.
To find the answer, don't ask the people/bloggers etc., but ask yourself: deep, deep in your heart.

So, if you find you must repent
from side to side in argument
at least don't use your mind too hard
but trust my instict - I'm a bard.

And if not me, trust Schopenhauer:
"Genitals: sounding-board of brain."

Anonymous said...

Are you certain it's the "falling in love" part you're actually in love with? Or is it just that you don't know how to seperate the way you act in professional relationships from the way you act in personal ones?

I really admire your honesty for admitting your faults. It takes a strong person to do that.

I wish you all the best.

Anonymous said...

"The problem in my personal life is not so much I can't find love, as just as have no idea what to do with it when I do."

The problem is that you're shopping, but you're not buying.
Love has no confinements. It's a blank canvas really. We want to feel good. We want to know that someone else thinks highly of us. We want them to feel good just being with us. We want to make them feel good. It's all about opening your heart and feeling the flow. We learn the tender graces of the heart as we adhere to the undulating alchemy of another human being alive in us. Finding love is hard, keeping it is even harder, yet without monogamy it is easy to loose. Monogamy offers a better commitment to love.

Anonymous said...


I wonder if anyone truly understands love. I get the part not knowing but I think everyone questions it. However, many of those that have commented already have said a lot.

i believe everyone is in love with the idea of being in love but fear what it means. Some people say a physical connection must exist and others an emotional. I believe both, but more emotional than physical. My reasoning is because well in a few years the old body may not be the same as it once was. Yet, with an emotional connection it is based more on the heart and mind. Course sex is part of it, but it cannot be all of it, now can it?

I agree with Alexy that love has no restrictions. One does not love someone and then place rules and walls around them. Instead we except this person that our heart has taken completely, no judgments allowed.

I must also say that the words, "I love you". are used far to much or maybe that is too easily. People are quick to pull out the words and have no "idea" how to back them up. Love can come in seconds or may take years. But it cannot be harnessed into a package and then used at leisure. It is something that buries beneath your skin, its flavor, aroma, feelings weave so intensely into you that it does not fade. True love may change, but all things do. But the truest form of love is forgiving, stable, giving, it is everything that words cannot explain.

Anonymous said...

You will meet someone and then you will realise that what you thought was love in the past was mere attraction.

Then you will change. With a bit of luck she won't be thinking the same way you are at the moment and you can make a go of it.

Then we will see how you really feel about her having other relationships while she is with you.

Anonymous said...

Well I love you Crushed... will you come away with me?

Anonymous said...

Sean- It's as well to know the reasons behind your own way of thinking. It's interesting that my closest friend- almost a psychic twin to me in this particular regard was brought up by his grandparents, whereas my grandmother is also my closest family member.

Shelly- It's not actually the way I deal with my close friends at all, oddly.
In fact, I have a degree of honesty with the people immediately close to me that a lot of people don't seem to. But I don't carry this over into my 'love' life.

Alexys- I'm aware of this. The thing is, I do often feel everything you describe about someone. And then I'll start talking to someone else in a bar and within five minutes, I feel it again.
It's the settling down and giving trust thing I find scary, what is odd is myself and flatmate are very like a couple, but of course, we're not.
It's the idea of giving someone else that complete hold over you that I guess I fear.

Inside- I must admit, I do use the words 'I love you' when I don't mean them, I actually mean 'I love what we just did, it was good.'

Unfortunately, I find the emotional intensity highly addictive.
I think in one sense, I love almost everybody.
But I restrict access to my comfort zone closely, there are a small group of people in there, and it's hard for a lover to gain accesss.

Bag- I'm often told this :)

Problem for me is that I love the getting to know someone, I love an intense psychic connection.
But it's like you can only read a book for the first time once, you may well read it over and over again, but you also want to read other books, gain new knowledge- not just go over what you already know.

Anonymous said...

Mutley- You are just saying that in case I get more memes to pass on.
You tease!

Anonymous said...

that feeling of reaching a peak,that happens to almost everyone. who said one need to feel strongly all the time? imagine wanting someone badly all day.scary! life is not about sleeping together alone. the fire needn't be there all the time.stop feeling conscious and apprehensive about future and relax. love is sex,fight,talking,sharing,living together,getting used to eachother and making family together.

i vote for monogamy. i can't imagine two deliveries, two homes to manage and two responsibilities.

Anonymous said...

I thought I was the only one telling people that even if I found Mr Right, I wouldn’t know what to do with him.

Love, it’s a tricky thing. Often people tend to fall in love with the idea of being in love rather then the object of their desire. And anyway, you are asking the wrong person about love – I think I might suffer from commitmentphobia.

Good luck finding whatever it is you’re heart desires.

Anonymous said...

selling yourself is a part of life. being true to yourself is another. if you can balance the two and maintain a good conscience, you'll be cool.

Anonymous said...

I think you sound like a great catch for some lucky girl! You will know love when it hits you believe me! You have no control over who you fall in love with.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if you are confusing infatuation and the ‘rush’ of the initial 'crush' of a relationship with love. If you may be addicted to the buzz of the chase (the sale if you will).

That is just the acorn.

It needs (sounding corny I know) some good soil, plus regular sunshine, water and time to become an oak tree.

OK :-) You can puke now - but it is true all the same.

Anonymous said...

Nithya- There is considerable evidence that women too adopt a dual strategy. Women obviously are designed to give birth to more than one child.
Women seek reliable homemakers, but also secretly look for fast playing risk takers to ensure they don't put their eggs in one basket (literally).
It is intersting that the word cuckold derives from cuckoo, because in a sense, it is a similar genetic strategy; all women instinctively seek a dependable male to raise ALL their children unquestioningly.

Crashie- Ah, but who said commitment was compulsory?
If you are not looking for Mr Right, why not just enjoy the company of the Mr Maybes until he shows up?

Raffi- I find it hard to sell products I don't believe in at some level.
I have to see the benefit in real terms to be able to present it with any degree of dedication.

Poody- I can be hard work. I have a tendancy to move from one all controlling interest to the next, I'm not a man of moderation, in any way.
It's true you have no control over these things, but I am very good indeed at closing them down before they get that far.

Phil- This is it entirely. It is the adrenalin rush stage I enjoy.
One of my friends thinks it will end when the options disappear, but that just sounds depressing.
I'm not sure I want that.

Anonymous said...

...When the initial fire starts to get more 'steady', I find myself lost. The sale bit is over, and I don't know what to do...

That's the point where love starts to replace "in love". It's a sign of maturity to turn yourself to one other person, not 24'7 but on the end of an elastic, invisible leash which brings you back every time.

Anonymous said...

Wow! You are truly a poet! Although, I hope I never meet you in real life. You're a lothario, too. You love the chase. And once you've got it, you move on. Truly a heartbreaker. But a poet none-the-less.

Anonymous said...

I think you're being rather hard on yourself, Crushed. Everyone is a little in love with the process, or idea, of falling in love, you know. I blame the French and amour courtois for the whole business, myself. When it's "real" for you, believe me, you'll know.

Anonymous said...

Daimyo- I probably did believe that once. Life can make you cynical, I'm afraid.
It's also true that I just don't have room for that sort of devotion. A common complain I get is 'I never see you, except when you want to go to bed.'

It doesn't start like that, but the problem is by devoting time to them in the first place, I have had to put other things aside. I can't do that permanently, so after a month or so, I have a list of people moaning I'm ignpring them. This involves me spending a lot of time away, and then because they are irritating me by demanding time I haven't got, I just ignore their calls.
That's the cycle pretty much.

Lucy- I'm not a heartbreaker, in the sense I never have an agenda to do so.
But I have started to realise recently that some do see me as such and that some of the responses I receive from people in the real world are linked to that perception. I have a nickname (never used to my face, but I know of it) which isn't very nice and involves a word usually used to describe a woman who sells herself.

A poet? How? I've only ever posted one poem here (two, but one was by Coleridge)

Welshcakes- Welshcakes, when I get it, I get it bad.
I'm the same with Music; Buy an album, play it to death for a month, hardly ever play it again.
I have a highly addictive personality and it is such a good thing I NEVER touched heroin.

Anonymous said...

I think this kind of honesty with the person you are having the actual relationship with would have been better, instead os still "faking " love when they think it is time to walk away. Yes, that does make you morally reprehensible that if you know this about yourself you engage in such sakles talk as " I have not felt anything for anyone in 10 yrs until you", act totally monogamous, propose marriage no less than 4 times, asking to bring engagement ring by twice and then write this post while still calling your " soul mate".
If it was a job, you'd be done for criminal fraud.

Anonymous said...

"Beautiful!" *exclaims, clapping hands". I even forgot that it was a post about polling. Was thinking during your first lines that no one voted 'don't know' because people who don't know, don't vote. People who vote have an opinion.

Selling is a gift; as for me, it's one of my worst fears. Hell for me would have to be selling something each But yes, to sell, you do have to be kind of a people person (and it's interesting how people are differently made; that you actually do want to chat with people - I'm afraid of people;-)).

Back to the rest of your post - I think it's a normal feeling. I feel the same way ;-) How can one ever be sure? Maybe by losing the person first (and even then, we might think we wanted the person back just to be perverse... or we might find we get along well without them, because the world is full of attractive people...). Got more to say about this... but later (laptop battery dying now).

Anonymous said...

Hmm, I've an answer.... looking back, I realize that girls agree on this same thing too; that they enjoy the process of falling in love, but not the result later (it gets stale). But we stay on because we feel that the guy has sort of paid; that this is the necessary exchange that has to happen; he's wooed us and won us, and we enjoyed it, so now we have to pay for that pleasure with our lives - and continue on with him. There's also the thing about security; get together now with someone who wants you, because someday, no one will, and you'll be all alone. That's my 2 cents ;-)

Anonymous said...

Ubermouth- You maybe misread my post, it's mainly lack of self knowledge I engage in. I fall in love easily, on all levels, in the sense of finding someone addictive, and having romantic visions, but then it just becomes unfeasible.
The fact remains, there's only a certain amount of hours a week I have spare, and it's not enough to fit a long term relationship into.
Nothing really I can do about that.

Eve- I'm the sort of person who finds complete silence a little intimidating.
I need to know people are around me, I couldn't do a job which involved long periods of not interacting.

I like going out, I go clubbing regularly, I am at parties most weekends, my friends often stay weekends, or I stay at theirs. I couldn't give that up, even for my drean woman. I could never give any woman more time than I devote to my mates. They would always be more important.

I agree with your point about what women want, and it's one of my reasons for believing that monogamy is not what is meant for humans.

Anonymous said...

> I could never give any woman more time than I devote to my mates. They would always be more important.

One thing comes to mind (and it's so familiar; maybe it's an age-old story); where if your mates were to get hitched, one by one... ;-) (That's what happens here, with my girl friends...). But I guess you'd easily find a new set of friends...:-)

Anonymous said...

Eve- You have several sorts of friends, or I do anyway.
I have what we might call a 'short term' list. These are people you socialise with simply because, yours lives cross at this point. Should you change jobs, or move house, you wouldn't keep in touch.
Then there is a 'life phase' list.

These are a smaller list, maybe ten to twenty people who you do make an effort to keep in touch, go out with, call round to see, invite to parties. People get added over time, and others drop off.
I can think of many people I was really close to University, I wouldn't ring now, even I had their number. We've followed different life roads over seven years.
and there are friends I've met at jobs I've had, who I do stay in touch with, long after we've both stopped working there.

But REAL friends, are those few you keeo fpr life, wherever your lives take you, no matter how different your destinations, you always stay close, because the bond between you is one of total comprehension.
People you never argue with, because they really would die for you- and you for them.

The people in this category, for me, can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

But it gives me the luxury of not having to fall in love to avoid being lonely.

Anonymous said...

Very, very well said, CBI! *marvelling*. You're right; I have very few of the people in that last group too. In fact, if you say 'die for'; then I think I'd only find one, yet even so, that is enough.

I don't think I have a 'life phase' list, since I don't 'make an effort to keep in touch, go out with, call round to see, invite to parties' anyone. I just hang out with that one best friend (so it's a good thing she's still around. If she wasn't, I'd just keep to myself, as I did 2 years ago when our rooms were far from each other). So in some ways, since she's available, she might be considered in the 'short term' list, since I wouldn't make much effort to see her or talk to her if she wasn't...but then again, perhaps one can be friends without giving too much time (I'd still help her with whatever she needed, even if we didn't talk all that much - but then, over time, I guess one does need to talk, even if just to know you both are still the same people). With girls, friendship always seems to take second place to love relationships; I remember that even when we first met, she was bemoaning the fact that she didn't have a bf (and wondering if she was flawed. Now she does have one, so the self-esteem problem is sorted out.) I realized then that there are some things friends can't provide; it wasn't enough to have me (so I tried to help her love life along a little). I guess all women need to feel desired by a man (a criteria I can't fulfil...;-))