Tuesday 6 November 2007
Catholicism- A Living Faith
Catholics and Christians.
It's odd at first glance that the distinction exists- but exist it does. Most people are unconscious they use it, but use it they do.
If a person calls themselves a Christian, or is referred to AS a Christian, then unconsciously we know that they are not a Catholic.
Catholic refer to themselves, and are referred to as Catholics.
I do it myself. I remember angrily crossing out the 'Christian' box on the 2001 census and writing CATHOLIC in large letters.
What is more interesting is that if I was to say to people I was a Christian in a social setting, they would laugh in disbelief. When I tell them I'm Catholic, they are mildly surprised, especially when I tell them, I do still take mass, but they can believe it. People ARE dimly aware, I think, that religion is a very different thing to Catholics.
But Catholics ARE Christians aren't they?
Catholics and Protestants worship the same God, believe Jesus to be his son, follow his teachings and read the same bible?
You see, already in that last sentence, there's one falsehood- we DON'T read the same bible. Ours contains books not in the King James version. Ours is slightly bigger.
Catholicism and Protestantism are different faiths, founded on different premises. It's easy to ignore this in an English speaking country, because the Anglican church has always posed as Protestant whilst retaining much Catholic teaching and symbolism. It has succeeded for a long time in masking the incompatibility of the two positions.
The incompatibility rests on what we as Catholics believe to be the route to salvation and what a Protestant believes.
The rest, transubstantiation, apostolic succession, etc DO represent irreconcilable differences, but they do so for the underlying reason behind them.
Protestants believe, ultimately, salvation comes through the Bible, and the Bible alone. It is the unerring word of God, and some would insist on its literal truth. I have witnessed Christian discussion groups and much has centred on reading and interpreting Bible passages.
This is the difference. I have been fortunate to have been able to consider myself a friend to more than one priest. Oh, neither of them thought I was a Saint- they'd heard my confession, but Catholicism is like that. The Sinner and the Saint are on the same road- It's just the sinner will take longer. He's showing willing, and he WILL get there. That's an important part of Catholicism. There's no Damascene conversions, no feeling the Holy spirit within you, none of that stuff that Bible Christians adore. The journey starts at birth and ends at death- it's a personal one. Being a sinner doesn't make me a bad Catholic, because like the prodigal son, I keep coming back and saying sorry.
One of the priests I knew well was a Cambridge Physics graduate- so as you can imagine, I used to enjoy our little discussions. Like me, he believed firmly that Religion and Science were one. But he was also VERY theologically Orthodox. It was through him I really got to understand my faith.
Firstly, he reminded me that Judaism is a religion of a book. Islam is a religion of a book. Protestantism is a religion of a book. Catholicism isn't.
To Catholics, the Bible is USEFUL, but bits of it patently aren't true in the literal sense and no Catholic has a problem with that.
Catholicism is a religion based on the premise that Jesus Christ founded, in 33AD, a community of Apostles to spread the word of God.
Now the implications of that are significant, and to a Protestant, sinister.
Because, we as Catholics, ultimately accept that God's word can change. Just as Christ's Death wiped out the commandments of the Old Testament and established a New Law, we as Catholics are in the position that WE BELIEVE IF THE CHURCH DECREES THAT THE LAW HAS CHANGED AND THAT THAT IS THE WILL OF GOD, we accept that.
Because we believe it to be the SAME community of apostles Jesus founded. To us, Christ's message was not one frozen in time. He founded a living, breathing community, which strives continuously to understand God. Catholics seeking to understand God, turn as much to St Augustine, St Jerome and St Thomas Aquinas as they do the Bible.
To Catholics, the Old Testament represents a superseded message, superseded by the New. It helps us understand the New, but so too, do many other things. A Catholic can with some ease, look at other faiths and creeds and say; they too, contain a piece of the puzzle. We don't think they are messages as complete as ours, but we can look at them, and sometimes they can add to our worldview.
We believe that at all times we are told what we should know, but after all, at one time, that was that God made the world in seven days.
And we know that wasn't so.
God will always tell us truth, but not, perhaps, the whole truth. And as we change, his message changes. That is one thing the Bible makes clear.
Ultimately, our Faith comes down to one chilling premise. And my priest friend shocked me when he posed it.
'But really, what is the only thing we CAN be sure of?'
I was stumped.
'That he will never lie?'
My priest friend squinted.
'We can be sure he will always tell us what is necessary for our salvation. We can be sure he wants us to redeem ourselves.'
Though we can't say FOR SURE what that means.
And that's it. That is the Catholic Faith at it's most blunt.
It is the belief that You and I, all of us, can be redeemed, through sharing Mass and making our peace with God.
We believe that our Church is God's living, breathing message.
As long as we are listening.
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20 comments:
Crushed,
I am gobsmacked. I thought Catholics WERE Christians. How could I have missed the distinction? Isn't anyone who followed Christ a Christian?
I am happy that your faith gives you so much joy.
I wasn't aware that Catholics had extra books in their Bible. What are they?
Protestants don't believe that salvation comes through the Bible but through Christ.
I think you should lie down and have a gin & tonic
There is another distinction. We pray to the saints and to Mary etc. etc., and the flat Christians don't. They seem to see it as some kind of symbol worship.
“Catholics, ultimately accept that God's word can change”
That basically means it should be the most updated religion reflecting the “truth” the best… go figure.
Giod will always tell the truth, yes, but we forget the minor detail, the human factor, that it has to be interpreted by people, which doesn’t necessarily reflect the “truth” as it was meant.
Faith is a wonderful thing, and it is a pity that others react so strongly upon it.
Liz, the books (called the apocrypha or 'hidden' from the OT are: 1 Ezra, 1 Maccabees, Baruch, Judith, 2 Ezra, Sirach, Tobit, (additions to Daniel and Esther), Jeremy, 2 Maccabees, Manasseh, and Wisdom. Many of these ones were originally left out by Jerome in 405 A.D. when he wrote the Latin Vulgate, from the NT: Infancy Gospel of James, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Judas, I & II Clement and the book of the Shepherd of Hermas. Catholics and Protestants typically have the same NT, with some gnostic sects having some of those NT apocryphal books. It's the OT that they don't share the same.
Liz is right, also. Protestants teach from and learn from the Bible, but they believe salvation comes from complete and utter faith in the Christ and his life and death. There's an interesting scene in the movie Amistad. One of the opressed was given an illustrated Bible by abolitionists, and he sat for weeks turning the pages and looking at the pictures. When they were out of the courtroom another of the opressed hissed "you don't have to do that no one is seeing you look at the English Bible" and the first man said "I think I get it" (Obviously I'm paraphrasing here) and he turned the pages and pointed at the pictures in turn "This man with the sun behind him (the pictures have a halo) was perfect and was followed by all these people and he did much magic. The leaders were afraid of him and they killed him and his people buried him but look... he came back."
However, simplistic the belief may be, Protestants would believe that man would be saved from an eternity in torment (i.e. out of the communion with the Creator).
Sorry to kidnap your blog, coming from a Protestant seminary and married to a devout Catholic has turned my world upside down and I think we will all make greater strides in our personal beliefs and growths (and growth as a species) if we stop focusing on the differences, and like Christ says "Have the faith of a child."
Hi Crushed!! Do you mind if I don't comment on this matter other than to say that I am pretty sure protestants don't believe anything you ascribe to them - but instead pose an individual relationship with a Living God?
Its only that I know nothing of such matteers..
Probably less so, Phishez. My church is very austere with very little symbolism present (CofE). We take the Eucharist too.
I don't believe in any of it now to be honest. I still go to services in support of my community rather than to worship. On examination I found that the Church of ENGLAND was more important to me than the church of CHRIST. I think it's all about tribalism having been instilled in us through indoctrination from a young age.
Science may not have disproved God entirely but by heck it's blown a big hole in the smoke and bells mumbo jumbo.
I don't think I'm on board totally with these ideas Crushed.
I'd say that the Bible is very important in the life of both Catholics and the Church. We've always had the readings from the Bible and a sermon based on the readings in the Mass but were not always encouraged to read the Bible in former times. But that all changed, probably after Vatican II when Catholics were encouraged to read and study the Bible. Many Catholic churches embraced the idea of these groups, especially in Lent and Advent.
As to believing that the Church can change the Law, they can but they can never contradict scripture and in fact Papal Infallibility has only been used twice, both in doctrines regarding Mary.
I think as Liz has said, ultimately we come to God through Christ but his teachings are revealed through the New Testament.
Alexys- It depends on your definition. Most Non-Catholics see us distinct. I think myself, to talk of Christianity as one faith is a little misleading, just as it would be to see Monotheism is. Both Catholics and Protestants can find common ground, but then we can with Muslims too.
We ARE Christians, but NOT in the sense the word is used in common speech in the English speaking world.
Liz- I'll come to your first point, with Helen's.
All Christians believe salvation is through Christ, its HOW we hear Christ we disagre on.
My grandmother has never owned a Bible, and knows nothing of the Old Testament. She has never missed Mass- that's how she knows Christ.
Jeremy- I've never like Gin, it has an unpleasant smell.
I don't lie down much either, though I probably should- I don't sleep much.
Phish- This is very true, and to me its quite a significant part of my faith- I think it is helpful to focus on a concept of a person you feel comfortable talking to in moments you needto pray- after all, praying works, I think, because it allows us to unleash our fears and feel listened to. To me, Mary is comforting. After all, she's a woman.
Crashie- Contrary to myth, we ARE up to date- you won't find a Catholic creationist- they don't exist.
We fully accept Evolution AND the Big Bang.
Helen- Of the ones you list, the ones we retain are, Tobit, Judith, 1&2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon and Ecclesiasticus (or Sirach as you refer to it),Manasseh, the extra bits to Daniel and Esther and the Epistle to Jeremy, which is lotted into one of the other books, I forget which.
Tobit and Judith were amongtst the best known OT books in the Middle ages- they are used in a lot of medieval Church art, whilst the Maccabees were held as being extremely important- not only are the latest to be written, but are closest in their time setting to Christ, and also have a hint of afterlife theology- including a hint the efficacy of prayers the dead- anathema to Luther, hence their banishment.
The Council of Trent evicted Baruch, I&2 Esdras, and one NT book, Paul's letter to the Laodiceans.
3&4 Maccabeees, plus Psalm 151 are still accepted by some Orthodox Churches.
1&2 Clement are still considered useful reading by the Church.
Luther wanted to evict Epistle of James as well, because of its support of Justification through good works, as well as the Apoclypse.
I think what is a key difference is, we don't see oureslves as the 'elect'. We aren't going straight to Heaven, or straight to Hell. The sinner can know he remains in God's Church and will pay for his sins, but ultimately come home.
Mutley- I think ALL religions essentially believe that. When I use Protestants here, I really mean the Calvinist, predestination, the Bible is literal truth types.
I work with one, he definitely believes me to be on the road to Hell- He also gets angry when I talk about Inner Monkey, because he refuses to accept Monkeys as our cousins.
E-K- I guess there IS a tribalism in it, certainly my faith is partly a badge to be trotted out, it IS my community.
I go once or twice a month, but to meit really is to be able to walk out feeling absolved from my sins since I last went and feel at peace with the world.
I hardly ever remember the readings, or the sermon. Its saying the creed and taking Mass that I really go for.
jmb- They can never contradict scripture, but if scripture was to be superseded (and it happened before, Christs death superseded the OT, then we would accept it. A New Law again, COULD come along, if Christ was to return, then obviously it would. And we as Catholics would know when Christ had returned, because our Church would recognise him.
This perhaps, is why Papal infallibility is so rarely used- so we know its serious when it is.
Protestants of course, argue our teachings DO contradict scripture, especially by calling our priests 'father'.
I HAVE read the NT, and in fact, a fair bit of the Old, not of course, all the tedious prophets, but the main bits.
I still recommend Thomas Aquinas :)
I feel the need for whatever reason to defend my beliefs against your last statement to you. I stated that "Protestants would believe that man would be saved from an eternity in torment (i.e. out of the communion with the Creator)."
I never made "elitist" implications or used the words 'heaven' or 'hell' you did. And you cannot, cannot tell me that the Catholic church does not base their beliefs of works on the concepts of where ones eternity will be spent.
Through the Bible or through Mass, however one finds Christ, it is ultimately to have that communion and harmony with God and his universe.
The example that I used--the man from Africa on the Amistad--was just that an example, to show you how important simple faith is to Protestants, don't twist my words to imply that I was meaning that any one Protestant PERSON could judge a person's soul or that that even matters. That wasn't fair at all.
Helen- :) I have re-read my comment to you and am slightly taken aback that you saw harshness there.
To clarify;
The concept of the 'elect' is fundamental to Bible Christians- no offence aimed at yourself.
Protestants believe we either go straight to Heaven, or straight to Hell. You redeem yourself, or you don't.
The world is divided, by this outlook, in to the 'elect', those chosen for salvation (Calvin's words, not mine), and the damned.
I am good, because God made me good, or I am bad because he didn't.
To an extreme Calvinst, Faith becomes simply about believing yourself to be virtuous- by my reckoning.
Catholics don't see it that way.
God said, 'vengeance is mine'.
What that means is that God WILL punish ALL sin.
But by accepting God and making full peace with him, we will be saved.
So most of us, will be saved AND punished.
Hence, our concept of Purgatory.
It IS actually a fundamental part of devout Protestant belief, that the whole POINT of Faith, is that you were GIVEN Faith, because GOD gave it you. If you don't believe yourself to be the Elect, you aren't.
Whereas we believe that we can be scum, yet still be redeemed by asking God to redeem us.
We believe if Hitler suddenly saw how much God loved him seconds before that bullet hit the back of his throat, then yes, millenia in Purgatory for him, but ultimately, the chance to meet his maker.
Crushed, I guess I shouldn't have taken such offense, because as you said that was the outlook of Protestants, I just hated that my words were a segue into that militant aspect of Protestantism, for that is actually why I left the school that I did and why my Catholic husband and I can concur to rear our children in the Catholic faith.
I don't think that Protestants believe that Faith is about seeing yourself as virtuous, but by their pomposity many Bible Christians convey that mind-set.
I have such a different belief system, it's really hard to align with any one religion, but b/c I was reared in a Protestant church and spent time at a Protestant seminary, I have a foundation that I have to reconcile.
I do a bible study class every week and learn about the Catholic Faith. THe local Father runs it. He also says that Catholicism is a living faith - it is alive.
I get so much out of my classes, it's like a journey I am on. If I keep on with the adult study, next Easter I may be welcomed into the Catholic church and I am going to be very proud and excited to do this. I am loving so much about this faith (I was baptised Church of England)...I enjoyed your post a lot.
In this instance, you'll probably complete disagree with everything I wrote on my blog the other day on this site.
Mind you, if everyone agreed with everything, life would be so boring!
EK, I'm a Catholic. I'm saying that we symbol worship more than the Christians, and it is a significant distinction.
Hey, CBI - good post.
It's interesting to read the "not people of the book" thing. People are often shocked by the fact that despite being a cradle catholic I know very little about the Bible and don't spend much time on it. But it's definitely a part of our culture - it probably just stems from the importance of the Church itself and not letting awkward things happen like people interpreting scripture for themselves.
That aside, I think you're spot on - it's supposed to be Christ, and the work of the church he founded, that matters most to us. After all, don't we have a personified Word to read?
I think I'm with JJ! I certainly need a g&t now! Seriously, Crushed, a fantastically interesting post. I never thought of a distinction between Cathloics and Christians before, nor did I think of Cathloicism not being a faith "of the book". I am drawn to Catholicism, as you know, but I do have one or two problems with it, I suppose the major one being that to me, if something is a sin, it is always a sin, such as murder. How can , say, birth control be a sin one day and not the next, if the Pope so decrees? That's my problem. Thank you for making me think.
I think Calvinism is a very specific heretical form - in a normal context 'Protestantism' would be all forms calling themselves Christian apart from Roman Catholicism. Clear non Calvinist examples would be Methodists and Baptists and of course the C of E..
I understand you, Phishez. My response wasn't worded very well.
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